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User talk:Deathwishc
Welcome Hi, welcome to ! Thanks for your edit to the File:Westeros 4 - War of the Five Kings.png page. We welcome all contributions to the Wiki but please be aware of the following simple rules: 1) This wiki is meant for the Game of Thrones TV series and the TV alone. Spoilers from the novels are not permitted at all. Discussion of earlier events in the novels and the use of non-spoiler background material from the novel as regards specific events, characters and places in the TV series are allowed (in the 'In the books' section of an article) but future events cannot be discussed. 2) This wiki has specific permission from HBO's marketing department to use a reasonable number of promotional images and screencaps from the series to illustrate articles. The use of other copyrighted images is not permitted without either specific permission or fair use attributions. For example, this Wiki cannot use Amoka's portrait images or Ted Nasmith's castle pictures as these are copyrighted. In addition, the Wiki is focused on the TV series and TV series alone. Images from other media should be avoided without a very good cause. Enjoy your editing and please leave a message on my talk page if I can help with anything! Gonzalo84 (talk) 00:48, May 16, 2014 (UTC) Map The map you created has major problems. You titled this "Alliances at the start of the War of the Five Kings" *1 - In no way does it indicate that the Vale and Dorne are officially neutral. *2 - In no way does it attempt to represent in any capacity that the Tullys are allied with the Starks...which is a fairly basic thing to show on a map explicitly claiming to "show alliances". *3 - It is not immediately clear that Renly's Stormlands and the Tyrells are allied, due to both being shades of green, but... *4 - You made the Vale purple, somehow implying that they're allied with the Tullys, who you show in blue? --The Dragon Demands (talk) 01:20, May 16, 2014 (UTC) : Thank you for your notes. I did not include a legend so I can see why the map is unclear. The idea here is to use the outline color to denote "vassals"/allies and the fill color to denote territory of the great houses. So, for instance, the Riverlands are outlined with the fill color of the North. I also outlined the Crownlands in black to distinguish the region. The Vale and Dorne lack an outline in this image to show they are not allied to any of the five kings, but you are correct in that there isn't anything that explicitly shows they are neutral parties in the war. One idea I've considered is to use crossed swords to indicate a state of war between two regions. : The colors I chose for each region are based on the house banners, but I adjusted most of them to what I thought were more distinctive and visually appealing shades. I attached an alternate version that uses the HBO banner colors for comparison below. : I made a series of similar images for various points in the timeline (Before Aegon's Landing, After the War of Conquest, After Robert's Rebellion, War of the Five Kings, After the Battle of the Blackwater, and After the Red Wedding). If you think the map would make a worthwhile addition to the wiki, I'd love to hear some ideas on what improvements I could make to it. : --Deathwishc (talk) 04:05, May 16, 2014 (UTC) ...No one can easily see that the outlines are color coded in this, at the size it appears in articles. That was a bad idea. I didn't even notice this until you pointed it out. No, do not treat the Tullys as separate from the Starks given that they're on the same side. Nothing can be "improved", start over from scratch.--The Dragon Demands (talk) 04:55, May 16, 2014 (UTC) ::It should also be on the map that, at the early stages of the War of the Five Kings, half the Riverlands (if not more) are overran by Lannisters.--Gonzalo84 (talk) 05:11, May 16, 2014 (UTC) ::And that some of Stannis vassals sworn to Dragonstone have their seats on the Cronwlands (on Massey's Hook)--Gonzalo84 (talk) 05:17, May 16, 2014 (UTC) :::Basically everything south of Red Fork but north of the Gold Road and Harrenhal/Gods Eye are a contested war zone at that point; if the Starks are grey and the Lannisters gold, a map would probably represent that by alternating grey and gold lines.--The Dragon Demands (talk) 06:04, May 16, 2014 (UTC) :::::Thank you both for your feedback. My original thought was to try to recreate a simple overview akin to the "Areas of Control" feature from the season 2 viewers guide while at the same time maintaining regional boundaries, but the addition of conflict zones would certainly make the map more robust. I'll reexamine the idea and see what I can do.--Deathwishc (talk) 22:19, May 16, 2014 (UTC) All right, I made a second attempt. *added Riverlands conflict zone *set Dorne and the Vale to gray to indicate neutrality *set each king's domain as uniform color *removed house sigils except for those of the five kings (I can add those back if it makes it more clear) *corrected Stannis' territory --Deathwishc (talk) 00:28, May 24, 2014 (UTC) ...Actually, this is great. You even got the conflict zone alternate shading thing just as I envisioned. I'm sorry I was stern about your earlier version. The gold Grejoy kraken doesn't show up well against gold islands; maybe switch the islands to black like in the earlier version? (Whatever is done, the Iron Islands are always hard to fit a map sigil over because...they're an archipelago of tiny islands). I could go either way on whether to put Vale and Dorne heraldry back in: what does everyone else think?--The Dragon Demands (talk) 01:21, May 24, 2014 (UTC) : No worries, you provided valuable feedback. Here's the alternate version for a point of comparison.--Deathwishc (talk) 03:11, May 24, 2014 (UTC) : The last one is great: War of the Five Kings 1 - Start alt.png --The Dragon Demands (talk) 23:14, June 6, 2014 (UTC) Gifs I've added a couple animated GIFs that show the progress of different wars. That got me thinking that I could take that one step further and add individual battle locations. As far as I can tell, the GIFs only play when opened to their own pages so they probably wouldn't be suitable as thumbnails on articles, but the individual images could still be used. And I imagine there are some inaccuracies in the maps that I didn't catch. --Deathwishc (talk) 23:07, June 6, 2014 (UTC) Movable gifs can be kind of confusing. They move too fast. It would be more helpful if we could have the constituent images from those gifs, each as a "snapshot" showing progress at intervals during the war - then we'll adapt them on draw army movements on them later. But instead of a gif, we'd have "start" (which we already have) which is post-Whispering Wood (technically the Greyjoys formally announced that they were rebelling only after Renly died, but many ignore that for convenience). The second one would show the Tyrells shifting to a neutral stance while the Greyjoys are occupying the west coast of the North and Winterfell, while Stannis holds the entire continental Stormlands (late Season 2, even of the Battle of the Blackwater). The second would be Tyrells and mainlands Stormlands on the Lannister side (basically, all of the "Renly" portions from the first map shifted to Lannister color)...and with Dorne and the Vale shaded pink, I guess, to signify that they'd declared themselves neutral and weren't sending troops to support the Lannisters, but at this point it was obvious the Lannisters were winning so they weren't going to side with Robb Stark or Stannis at this point (with all of the marriage alliances of Myrcella/Trystane and Littlefinger/Lysa). Then the fourth I guess would be "now", which is take the Stark/Tully sections (not controlled by the Greyjoys) and replace them with Lannister-colored for allies (like the Tyrells) with the Bolton and Frey sigils...though, minor spoilers, show a blue dot at Riverrun and Raventree Hall to indicate that (as we know from the books) the remaining Tully garrisons there refused to surrender to the Lannisters even in the face of certain death.--The Dragon Demands (talk) 23:14, June 6, 2014 (UTC) One very minor correction: Robert's Rebellion shows the Riverlands as grey-neutral in the first slide, when they were actually divide (as shown in the second slide) from the beginning (good idea to show the norther Riverlands (Tullys) as pro-Robert and the southern half divided (the Darrys were Targaryen supporters).--The Dragon Demands (talk) 23:17, June 6, 2014 (UTC) Post-Red Wedding you might want to change Dorne and the Vale from neutral-grey to pink-allied (not that they're sending troops, but they're civil and theoretically acknowledge Lannister rule at this point). Meanwhile change the Stormlands from pink to simply red (Joffrey and Tommen maintain the farce that they're Robert's heirs, and thus claim the Stormlands directly, almost as an extension of the Crownlands). Another major point: the Fall of Moat Cailin didn't completely drive the ironborn from the North. It was a major blow because (as Roose explained) it allowed the main Bolton army (which had slaughtered their own allies at the Red Wedding) to re-enter the North, to enforce Bolton rule against any Northern bannermen who were having second thoughts (i.e. the Umber army went south and died, men of fighting age, but on a scale of years they might rebel with what they have if the Bolton army is still in the south). Anyway just remove the ironborn black from the west -- also it should be black throughout, not shaded black/grey. Afterwards the ironborn still control Torrhen's square and Sea Dragon's point. ....basically, draw a vertical-ish line from that small peninsula just south of Bear Island, through that small lake (to the upper left of the Stark/Bolton sigil), ending at that tiny river bottom-left of the sigils (the eastern of the two small rivers there). Also the "late Season 2" map should show them holding Winterfell as well as Moat Cailin, but to show that Ramsay kicked them out of Winterfell (albeit leaving it abandoned for a time), in "Season 3" remove the black Greyjoy color from that little of land between the lake, sigil, and that river to the east. That should handle things.--The Dragon Demands (talk) 23:24, June 6, 2014 (UTC) : Sounds good! I've only read book 1 and gleaned information from the wiki so I'm fuzzy on some of the territorial details. Thanks for clearing those up. I just noticed that I can add a gallery so I'll try uploading the images here using that method in the future. --Deathwishc (talk) 23:41, June 6, 2014 (UTC) Here are the updated galleries --Deathwishc (talk) 04:51, June 12, 2014 (UTC) War of Conquest War of Conquest 1 - Start.png|Before Aegon's Landing War of Conquest 2 - Aegon's Landing.png|Aegon's Landing War of Conquest 3 - Burning of Harrenhal.png|Burning of Harrenhal War of Conquest 4 - Last Storm.png|Last Storm War of Conquest 5 - Field of Fire.png|Field of Fire War of Conquest 6 - The North.png|Surrender of the North War of Conquest 7 - The Vale.png|Surrender of the Vale War of Conquest 8 - Dorne.png|Invasion of Dorne War of Conquest 9 - Final.png|End of the war Robert's Rebellion Robert's Rebellion 0 - Aerys' Kingdom.png|King Aerys' Realm Robert's Rebellion 1 - Start.png|Rebellion Begins Robert's Rebellion 2 - Battle of Summerhall, Battle of Ashford.png|Battle of Summerhall, Battle of Ashford Robert's Rebellion 3 - Siege of Storm's End, Battle of the Bells, Battle of the Trident.png|Siege of Storm's End, Battle of the Bells, Battle of the Trident Robert's Rebellion 4 - Siege of Storm's End, Sack of King's Landing.png|Siege of Storm's End, Sack of King's Landing Robert's Rebellion 5 - Siege of Storm's End, House Tyrell Bends the Knee.png|Siege of Storm's End, House Tyrell Bends the Knee Robert's Rebellion 6 - Showdown at the Red Mountains, Houses Martell and Greyjoy Bend the Knee.png|Showdown at the Red Mountains, Houses Martell and Greyjoy Bend the Knee Robert's Rebellion 7 - Assault on Dragonstone.png|Assault on Dragonstone War of the Five Kings War of the Five Kings 1 - Start.png|Start War of the Five Kings 2 - Assassination of King Renly.png|Assassination of King Renly War of the Five Kings 3 - Fall of Winterfell.png|Fall of Winterfell War of the Five Kings 4 - Battle of the Blackwater.png|Battle of the Blackwater War of the Five Kings 5 - Red Wedding.png|Red Wedding War of the Five Kings 6 - Fall of Moat Cailin.png|Fall of Moat Cailin